Hell in a Handbasket

I read a book by a man named Algot Lange ("In the Amazon Jungle"). He was there circa 1910 and it's a very interesting book at many levels. However, I mention it because he carried a Luger--a state-of-the-art somewhat exotic pistol at the time--and used it effectively for hunting.

Not a hoax (I was an SF Weapons Sergeant) many pistols had add ons to make them carbines etc. I agree about the finicky nature of the Luger though.

Cordially,

Uncle J

Proudly made in San Francisco. Drink in the irony.

Yeah, they are "finicky feeders" but it is also one of the most inherently accurate designs ever developed and was reliable as long as all I fed it was straight FMJ ball ammo. I loved mine even though I didn't have all the fancy accessories.

Firearms could be completely unregulated with zero effect on safety or crime. Gun control is what government hacks do instead of something. Criminals have all they want and take them wherever they choose. Law abiding people follow the stupid laws.

I'm not a gun expert, but I do have a fair amount of knowledge with regards to warfare and World War 2 in particular. The Luger, and it's predecessor, the broomhandle Mauser, are fun-looking, pretty pistols, but they are both considered very unreliable. Basically they're the first decade of the century's version of the M-16. If they are in the same zip code as a particle of dust, it winds up on the portion of the gun which jams the firing mechanism.

Incidentally, the broomhandle Mauser used to come with a similar set-up to this Luger. I believe that the original gun actually came with these accessories when you bought it a hundred or more years ago (the broomhandle Mauser was first made ca. 1895). The accessories included a holster that could be converted into a shoulder stock, and the gun had a much longer barrel than the Luger did. As far as I know, both of these sets of accessories are legal in the States and available, with the understanding that the gun can't be converted to fire on full automatic (both guns sometimes had this capability, but not always). They're expensive (several thousand dollars), clumsy, and more curiosities than anything else, but you might want to look around on the internet.

P.S. You can see Clint Eastwood shoot people with a broomhandle Mauser in the movie Joe Kidd, if you're interested in seeing what one looks like in simulated action.

A drumfeed? That puppy will get hot, raus!

The P-08 was designed for one specific bullet and it handles it well. The unique sound of the pistole does turn heads at the range. My uncle gave me one he brought home from Europe.

Fact is, there's a lot of this type stuff available -- for another 16 days or so! Just visit AuctionArms.com and GunBroker.com.
Though, I suspect, when government action forces up the price of existing (hidden) stocks, you'll see a lot more of it.

It's not about the guns. It's about the control.

All of which reminds me of a post on Volokh a month ago, mentioning the "common use" point raised in Heller.

Full-autos aren't illegal, generally, at the Federal level. They're just taxed to hell and back and their supply is effectively frozen at the 1986 stock. Their price does not reflect any aspect unique to their manufacture, just their scarcity.

The $200 transfer tax was intended to make full-autos prohibitively expensive to the average Joe at the time---Congress's lawyers told Congress they could not lawfully ban them, but they could tax them as heavily as they wished, and $200 was a lot more money then. Any future cases in the Heller arc need to present this fact.

So what did these full-auto marvels cost just before the NFA was passed? A lot less than $200 I'll bet. What did they cost, and what would the transfer tax be, in 2008 dollars?

And if you are really hankerin' for a pistol-rifle with all the doodads, do look up the AutoMag.

Happy New Year!

DavidN,

The accessories included a holster that could be converted into a shoulder stock, and the gun had a much longer barrel than the Luger did. As far as I know, both of these sets of accessories are legal in the States and available, with the understanding that the gun can't be converted to fire on full automatic (both guns sometimes had this capability, but not always).

Careful with the advice dispensing on teh intarw3bz...

A C96 Broomie or a P08 "Luger" shoulder stock would normally be a covered by the National Firearms Act as a "Short-Barelled Rifle", defined as a shoulder-fired weapon with a rifled bore and a barrel shorter than 16". There is a C&R (Curio & Relic) exemption for original C96 or P08 shoulder stock/holsters, which makes them legal, but owning and/or affixing a reproduction shoulder stock to either pistol without the appropriate tax stamp is good for a multi-year visit to Club Fed and a five figure fine.

(PS: The only thing the Broomie and the Luger have in common is that they were both made by the Jerries and were both pistols, otherwise they are two completely different guns. Also, their susceptibility to jamming is even more overhyped in popular mythos than that of the M16.)

Instalanche incoming.

(1) Check out the old "cowboy with a Thompson sub-machine gun" ad at http://www.flickr.com/photos/kingpowercinema/35177769/

(2) Shoulder stocks were made for adjustable-sight Browning (and Inglis) Hi-Power pistols during World War II. See some of the pictures at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power (scroll down). You can still get the shoulder stock at http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=408051

(3) If you have a copy of John Ross's "Unintended Consequences," turn to March 12,1964 (the Solothurn ad for $190) and July 22, 1968 (the Lahti ad for $100).

(4) Speaking of the 1920s, watch the video of the Zoot Shooters at http://billllsidlemind.blogspot.com/2009/01/bowling-pins.html (scroll down).

Sorry, but the "Man From Uncle" handguns were cosmetically modified Walther P-38's.

The first gun pictured is the 9mm Lange or "Long" P08 Luger, the artillery model issued with a shoulder stock and eventually the 32-round drum magazine in the photo.

From 1916 it was used by German stormtroopers as a semi-automatic carbine for close-in trench fighting. I've read that an experienced soldier could fire off all 32 rounds in under ten seconds.

The Long Luger was replaced by the Bergmann MP18/1, one of the first submachine guns, which used the same 32-round drum magazine.

As one of the instalanche people...

I can't say if the thing is a fake or not, however I will note the following things that say "real" (or at least plausible).

Prior to 1986 little was illegal in the fully auto world, not sure the law before that. There is little difference between a select fire and a semi-only gun - indeed for those with class three (machine gun) licenses the license is to the sear only (the part that makes the difference). The price differential before then was negligent (I can recall wondering why anyone would want to waste that much ammo), it is only significant now because of artificial scarcity.

Today's exorbitant prices are a function of limited quantity (civilian fully auto forearms have to be manufactured before some date 1986, too lazy to look it up). For instance, there are only four (last time I was interested in the number) GE mini-guns in civilian hands for this reason. Not that these guys are ever cheap, but hundreds if not thousands vs four makes a HUGE difference in price.

In fact it is *really* easy to make *any* semi-automatic fire in fully automatic mode. It is both *VERY* illegal to modify a gun to do so and will eventually occur if shot long enough (and, sadly, due to the way the law is written the punishment is the same if done intentionally or through wear).

There is nothing technically impossible about the articles, however at the time there was little interest in such things - after all, if totally legal why waste ammo? In fact, everything listed there is 100% totally legal if it truly exists - even now you only need to find one for sale and pay the tax required to own one (any thing manufactured before 1986 only requires the stamp).

Heck I've shot quite legal silenced MP5's, Firedragons, and Ma Duces. In fact had I the money I would have shot a quad linked Ma Duce - *four* 50 BMG each firing at over 500 rounds per minute is a truly awesome sight to behold (especially when not on the receiving end) and is 100% totally legal for civilians to own. Indeed - as expressed there are four GE mini-guns on the market and there is little else outside of airplanes that fires anything as impressive as those (and even then most do not live up to that impressiveness).