I wrote about a new bolt action mini-shotgun that is now being issued to our troops. Steven den Beste left a comment....
"I thought shotguns violated the Hague convention."
Every war the United States has taken part in has seen the troops using shotguns. During WWI, the firearms firm of Winchester even modified a design dating back to 1897 so a bayonet could be attached. These updated Winchester 1897 shotguns were known as the M97, and they saw use up through the Korean War in large numbers. I have heard that a few of them are even now being used in the streets of Iraq.
(Please click on all pictures to see if a larger image is available.)
Imagine that for a moment. A gun designed in the 19th Century, some of which were manufactured for use in the War to End All Wars, and it is still knocking down both doors and bad guys in the Middle East. Talk about an old war horse!
The reason why they are still in use is due to a number of factors. Shotguns are specialty weapons, issued in very limited numbers and only during some very limited circumstances. This means that they are held in the arsenal for years, maybe even decades, before being taken out and used in the field. Although effective in close quarters combat, the troops do not get regular shotgun training as far as I know. This means that there is very little wear and tear on the weapons.
Anyway, back to the history lesson.
One of the reasons why people think that using shotguns goes against the articles of war is due to a German hissy fit in 1918. Although they were never shy about tossing around the poison gas or sending a few guys with flamethrowers into the trench to burn people alive, the Germans complained to anyone who would listen that the American use of shotguns was a war crime! It didn't work, but the impression remains.
The M97 Trench Shotguns are still being manufactured, but by the Chinese defense firm of Norinco. An import ban means that we can no longer buy new M97 guns from that country, but this Canadian webpage has some info that might be of interest. Notice that you can still attach a bayonet.
So is the use of shotguns against the Hague Conventions? If it is, we should keep it under our hats.
So shut up already, Steven! You want to let the cat out of the bag?
Comments (11)
Notice that you can still attach a bayonet.
Excellent! I have coveted such a weapon after reading about it years ago. Unfortunately for me, I live in a place where such weapons are restricted to a 3-round magazine capacity and can't be stored in a way that allows them to be used for home defence.
A pity, as I am sure that the cold steel would be great for putting the wind up burglars, as in the 18th century:
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/early/armflint.htm (scroll down to the blunderbuss).
Posted by milo | November 15, 2007 12:51 PM
Posted on November 15, 2007 12:51
Oops... Mum's the word.
Seriously, I thought that the Hague convention banned use of projectiles which would be excessively difficult for surgeons to remove from the victim's body.
If a shotgun is firing something like buckshot, a small number of big balls, it probably wouldn't violate that provision. If it was bird shot, it clearly would. I guess the question would be where the dividing line would be.
Of course, another possibility is that I've been deceived about what the Hague convention actually says. There are sure a lot of people out there anxious to over-interpret the provisions of the Geneva Conventions and the Hague convention, and I may have inadvertantly bought into a load of BS.
Posted by Steven Den Beste | November 15, 2007 3:03 PM
Posted on November 15, 2007 15:03
Relevant language from the Hague convention:
"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."
I don't see anything about surgical removal, at least in the same section. Interestingly, at least to me, regular 00 buckshot was used in military loads, but special jacketed 22LR and 38 special was developed for US military use. Heck, buckshot flattens way more than a 22LR solid.
Posted by Bob | November 15, 2007 7:43 PM
Posted on November 15, 2007 19:43
I was thinking about a different provision. There was something that banned the use of projectiles which were designed to break up after impact, leaving a lot of fragments that would be difficult to remove surgically.
That's a different provision than the one Bob quoted that prohibits hollow points.
Posted by Steven Den Beste | November 15, 2007 9:28 PM
Posted on November 15, 2007 21:28
It probably doesn't make any difference, but I believe the picture is of a Winchester Model 12 and not a Model 97. The 97 had an exposed hammer and a different looking reciever.
Posted by ironpacker | November 16, 2007 5:03 AM
Posted on November 16, 2007 05:03
Well, the entirity of both Hague conventions, and pretty much any other relevant laws of war document is availible here:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm
At least to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing againt difficult to remove projectiles per say, though there is general language about projectiles that cause unnecessary suffering, or are likely to ineveitably kill already disabled combatants.
Posted by Bob | November 16, 2007 11:44 AM
Posted on November 16, 2007 11:44
I was gonna mention that the picture isn't a M97, but ironpacker beat me to it.
BTW, you can still buy chinese import 1897 clones, I just bought a new one this year for cowboy shooting. I'm not sure they still import the trenchgun clone though, I haven't seen one in a while.
While there is a ban on Norinco imports, the Chinese just rename the company and continue to import.
Posted by Jose Gigante | November 16, 2007 3:21 PM
Posted on November 16, 2007 15:21
During the first Gulf War, GEN Schwarzkopf kept a pump shotgun next to his bed, as a last-ditch defense in case of an assassination attempt. In other words, home defense.
Posted by Bob Hawkins | November 17, 2007 9:15 PM
Posted on November 17, 2007 21:15
If I remember right, the Germans announced that any American troop captured with a shotgun would b executed. Our command promply announced that for any American troop so executed, ten(I think) German troops would be shot.
I believe that was the last that was heard of that bitching.
Posted by Firehand | November 17, 2007 9:16 PM
Posted on November 17, 2007 21:16
I was a 95B (Military Police) 71'-73'. We had lots of shotguns and carried them most days. we had Winchester Model 12's, Remington 870's, and my fave the Winchester 1897. That's the one I liked the best. The external hammer was very convenient and safe. Also made a swell club. Made persuasion easy and fun. we even had the bayonets for em.
McDuck
Posted by mcduck | December 11, 2007 7:37 PM
Posted on December 11, 2007 19:37
One of the conventions does cover I believe weaponry that fragments and is undetectable by x-ray, which I think covers the "too difficult for surgeons", as long as the pellets and such can be found under x-ray in a hospital, allowing them to be removed, then you're okay.
Posted by Anasyn | February 5, 2008 3:35 PM
Posted on February 5, 2008 15:35