Hell in a Handbasket

It's interesting that you should post about this today, as I was contemplating a blog post along related lines.
Some of my colleagues who read historical fencing manuals tend to say things like "back in those days swords were used in earnest, so only those techniques that worked survived. Those who wrote fencing books knew what they were talking about, so if you can't make a technique work it means that you don't understand it, not that the master who wrote the book was wrong."
Extrapolating from that sort of thinking, we could conclude that anyone who writes about firearms usage in the 21st century is correct. But, as you point out above, even the modern experts give conflicting advice.

http://www.madogre.com/news.html
MadOgre says there are three flavors of TAP. The light weight one breaks open easily and doesn't penetrate deeply. The heavy one is a penetrator. The middle one is, in the middle! Apparently Bane and Policeone haven't done their homework. Thanks to MadOgre for a quick response.

It's not conflicting info...Hornady makes a whole LINE of TAP ammo, with different intended uses for the various offerrings. The 55-gr TAPS are designed for higher fragmentation and lower penetration. At least, that's what the Hornady reps told me, that's how the ammo is marketed and that's what several top SWAT and military trainers have told me.

Hornady has been marketing a less-penetrative 5.56 tactical round for at least 5 years.

RE: Rifles/carbines as self-defense options in urban scenarios...never said that one size fits all. I do think that most people don't have the slightest idea of how penetrative a specific cartridge actually is. A few years back, I did some penetration tests on various 9mm ammo though standard wall-type material that scared the crap out of me.

Bill Murphy makes a point in his GUNSITE shotgun class that all types of buckshot are much more penetrative than many people think (and moreso than many handgun and some rifle rounds)...and buckshot often gets recommended as a good "urban" self-defense load!

Here's the pop quiz...for an apartment dweller, is the best option a 9mm Glock, a Marlin Camp Carbine in .40 S&W, a 12-gauge Remington 870 or a Taurus "Judge" loaded with .410 shot?

The answer is "maybe"...can't answer without more info...the experience and skill level of the apartment dweller, the construction of the apartment itself, the threat level, the ammo, etc. If I was ramping someone up from zero, I'd go for the revolver; I'd probably end up with a "progressive" cylinder loading something like shot (#4); shot (#4); followed by 3 .45 Colt; Glaser Safety Slugs. Not ideal, but enough to get you through the night.

Everyone's situation is different, a point I have emphasized again and again.

Recommending firearms and/or ammunition is an inexact science. There are indeed substantial differences between credible people in many, many areas. Let me give you a "blunt trauma" example — the .30 Carbine cartridge out of an M1 Carbine...I have been told in excruciating detail by credible — credible being defined as people who used the round and the firearm in the field — LEOs and military that the .30 Carbine is a wildly overpenetrative largely ineffective round. I have also been told by equally credible LEOs and military that the .30 Carbine is the pure-D Hammer of Thor. In effect, both sides are correct — bullet performance is ultimately a chaos system, a singularity in which actual performance is based on quite literally thousands of individual factors, from the nature of shootee's clothing to his or her mental state at the time of the shooting. That means that simulated bullet performance is exactly that — simulated.

I base my personal self-defense decisions on both my own experience, testing and evaluations and the experiences, testings and evaluations of people I respect. I do my best to open my decision-making processes to my viewers and to my readers (and I suppose with my podcasts to my "hearers"). Unfortunately, I have no "revealed truths," no marble tablets brought down from the mountain. I can tell you want I like, what I use and why. Beyond that, you have to make your own decisions.

I am acutely aware that that I am talking about issues of life and death. I routinely get "you're going to get someone killed, you irresponsible fool" notes from people who either dislike things I like, like things I don't or just don't agree with me. I have already received viciously offensive emails based on James' imminently reasonable post on this blog (and his posted question on my blog), which I hope I have answered fairly. Not your fault, James!!!!! Just comes with the territory. My personal favorite is the one who said he would have posted his remarks on my blog, but couldn't find it. I guess my marketing needs work...although I did type "GOOGLE," then "MICHAEL BANE BLOG" and, well, there I was...in 18 of 20 of the first Google entries...darn...I was hoping for a grand slam!

Keep up the great work, James, and I appreciate your occasional comments on my blog!

Your friend,

Michael Bane

Fencing was formalized combat. Settling a personal dispute with a dress sword called for different techniques than hacking your way across a battle field.

As for the Swiss Army Knife, as someone who carries a relatively serious locking folder whenever clothed, I like the old snark. You've got your nail file, your fish scaler, and a light duty screwdriver. Now all you need is a knife.

Thank you for the info, HKL and Mr. Bane.

James

Please, James!

No "Mr.!"

mb

It's interesting that you should post about this today, as I was contemplating a blog post along related lines.

You've got a blog? What is the URL?

James

Fencing was formalized combat. Settling a personal dispute with a dress sword called for different techniques than hacking your way across a battle field.

...which is why the manuals of the period I study make very clear the differing tactics and techniques for each of those situations. The earlier the text, the more it concentrates on the latter situation. There is also the situation of personal defence with a sword outside the context of the duel. One can see a distinct difference between those masters who concentrated on those situations and those who were more interested in salle play or the contrived situation of the duel. A good example is Hope's "Sword Man's Vade Mecum", where only the most simple and effective techniques are supplied and some are favoured simply because they are easier to perform in low light conditions where the opponent's blade is hard to find.
In the case of ritualised combat, i.e. duels, these were far more brutal than is imagined today and dirty tricks and dishonourable conduct were sufficiently common for writers of the period to advise on how to avoid such things.

You've got a blog?

Well, sort of. It's not really a proper one because of the site it's hosted on and also because I don't write very interesting things.
http://knirirr.livejournal.com/
I keep meaning to put a proper one up but don't seem to have the time.

One of the great things about the AR platform is the wide variety of calibers possible with it, and the ease of caliber changes: push one pin out, remove a second and the upper receiver and barrel assembly comes off. Install a replacement upper assembly and presto! a new caliber rifle, cartridge size limited only by the size of the magazine well in the lower receiver. Currently, one can get uppers from .22 rimfire up to the .450 Bushmaster cartridge and the .458 SOCOM from Teppo Jutsu.

Given that, and the fact that the AR platform is the most popular rifle being sold today, I expect that someone, somewhere, who makes AR stuff will offer an upper in what will be touted as The Perfect Home Defense Cartridge, probably something in the .40-.45 caliber range with about 1400-1800 FPS from a 16" barrel.

Actually, a lightly loaded 300 grain .458 SOCOM pretty much fills that bill now, but the user is pretty much on his/her own for ammo and brass, although something like the .44 Automag or the .45 WinMag, despite both being pretty rare, are still commercially available in factory ammo.

I'll second the nomination of the AR as a good, safe home defense weapon.

My opinion on this topic changed radically after I discovered this site:

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

Here's a telling point:

Evidence increasingly shows that 5.56 FMJ rounds like M193 and M855 are not the over-penetration risk they have often been though of as. In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition and/or 00 Buck shotgun loads.

Keep in mind that we are not just talking about fancy expensive tactical ammo - this includes the cheap, common stuff.

Obviously, any round is potentially an overpenetration hazard. What matters is how well these rounds compare to our other real-life alternatives. If .223 is at least as safe as buckshot or 9mm ball, then it is as safe as any effective round we are likely to employ.

Basically, it's a lightweight varmit bullet, and it breaks up on the first thing it hits, but it still hits hard enough to do real damage to a human target.

Once the overpenetration issue is put aside, the AR compares wonderfully to our mutual favorite, the shotgun. It kicks less, it can be made smaller and lighter and shorter, it provides dozens of flashlight options, and it carries plenty of ammo with as much range as you could ever require. The only real downside is the cost. If these things were cheap, they would rule the world.

Of course, ARs are not perfect. Another big downside is the scary appearance, which can be a real factor in court; also, novices will have a bit more of a learning curve than they would with a typical slide-action shotgun, and, like any semi-auto, they are especially unforgiving of mistakes. The shotgun still might be the best first choice for many people, but the AR is a far better solution than many people realize.

Maybe slightly divergent from the intention of the original posting, but....

Assuming one has the financial and physical ability to make some choices, I am still convinced that the primary "home defense firearm', i.e.: "bedside gun" needs to be a handgun. A revolver by my preference.

This based on the idea that anything that you might be grabbing for half asleep, laying in bed, a bit excited, and in a hurry needs to be something you can operate easily with one hand.

Certainly things like shotgun and even .30 caliber rifles have their place and purpose in home defense, but there are some well thought out, and field tested by myself reasons, that a 6 shot revolver or a DAO semi-auto have been on my nightstand any my shotgun has been in a corner somewhere close.

The Box of Truth has a number of interesting articles about penetration through wall board using a number of calibers.

Somewhere on Kathy Jackson's Cornered Cat site she writes about how having kids was her determining factor for having her first home defense gun be a handgun. She simply could not imagine herself, if an intruder was in her home, leaving the room in which her children were to fetch a "long gun" from the home's "safe room".

That story makes me think that the best "Swiss Army knife of guns" depends upon the person. I know a lot of people that carry one of those small Swiss Army knives of their key chain because then they most always have it with them, even though it has fewer tools. In a very similar manner, a handgun small enough that you most always have it on you can be the right tool in a large number of situations even if you can't open a beer bottle very well with it.

While it is possible for you to get an AR-15 that will chamber various 5.56 mm and .223 loads and even 9mm conversions as a home defense gun I personaly just don't think that they are the swiss army knives of guns. Firstly they aren't cost effective for everyone. Your average AR style rifle, specicially the ones modeled after the M4 carbine, will run from about 1200.00 USD for a Bushmaster M4 Type "Post Ban" Carbine to a DPMS with similar features that will cost a minimum of 800.00 USD. Where as a 12 gauge pump shotgun is just as customizeable as an AR and for example the REmmington 870 express with a 7 round magazine capacity MSRPS for Less than 400.00 USD. There is also the issue of ammo for Both the AR and the 12 gauge. Simply the ammo selection for a shotgun is waht makes it more of a Swiss army knife of guns. You can get high powered magnum buck shot loads, slugs, regular buck shot loads, bird shot, less lethal bean bag rounds, and even TASER has come out with something to shoot out of a 12 gauge. You can adapt your 12 gauge to pretty much any purpose. Where as with an AR the only choice you have is rifle ammo, a solid small projectile. Simply put the shotgun should be considered the Swiss Army knife of Guns, The AR is more of the K-BAR of guns effective and deadly when used by someone with proper training.

I'm sure you've said this, but what's wrong with a shotgun? What can an AR-15 do inside that a shotgun can't? Without killing the neighbors... I'd like to be able to shoot without worrying about killing the nice little girl in the next apartment.

I love AR-15s, but inside they're not really the best choice. Shotguns are cheap. You can get an 870 or Mossberg 500 for $200. If you can afford an AR that's not much.

Ayoob (and others) recommend a handgun over a log gun for your domicile, since you can carry the gun in one hand and a flashlight in the other, making it easier to not shoot other members of your family of your dogs.

Yours,
Wince

I thought I had already left a comment in this thread, but it appears to have never actually posted?!?

I like the AR platform alot, and they're cost effective for some people, namely people that can get multiple uses out of it by shooting high power rifle, hunting, or competing in 3-gun or similar.

I'd argue that Homer's comment above points to a better solution he wants ~1300fps in a .40-45" a caliber= pistol caliber carbine. Even the lowly hi-point gives pretty nice ballistics (figure that given the velocity increase is a good couple hundred feet per second, 9x19 from a carbine is about as hot as 357 mag from a 4" revolver, 40SW from a carbine is about as hot as 10mm Auto from a 5" 1911, etc.)

In states where it is legal, more than a few deer are shot with 9mm, 357 and similar carbines, so its more than just a one-trick pony too. Off the top of my head, I dislike Marlin Camp Carbines, but the Beretta CX4, various UZI SA clones, Kel-Tec 2000, and Hi-Point carbines are all serviceable.

I'd have to say that as far as value per dollar, the SKS, especially as long as it wasn't passed through a C&R FFL and can be cut down to 16" or an Romanian Ak are pretty impressive deals at ~$120 and ~$300 respectively.