I have been thinking about writing something about so-called "mouse guns" for the better part of a week. Seems like a good time to get to it.
Why am I thinking of small caliber firearms? Wince of Wince and Nod fame left a comment at this post. It seems that Wince noticed that people sometimes have trouble controlling tiny hideout guns that are chambered for marginal calibers. He wanted me to speak my mind about this.
We first have to define what is going on here. The problem isn't that someone is having trouble controlling their gun because it is chambered for a small and weak caliber. The problem is that the gun is too small for their hands.
Most of the time, I am very encouraging to my students when it comes to their choice of defensive handgun. They know better than anyone what fits them best, after all. But there are a few things that I actively try to discourage, and teensy tiny guns that don't have enough of a grip is one of the issues that bug me the most.
The best example of this (or the worst, considering your point of view) is the derringer.
(Please click on all images to see if there are larger pics available. The one below is really large, just in case you want to use it for wallpaper.)
The first rule of gun handling is always point the gun in a safe direction. Although extremely simple, it is probably the hardest rule for the new shooter to follow. There is a great deal for them to remember when first learning, and it is all too easy for them to focus on something and forget to be aware of what is around them. It is even harder for them if they have to focus their attention down while they handle small guns.
Derringers are the smallest of the small, tiny firearms that are designed to be hidden away until the ultimate emergency. There isn't anything inherently wrong with this, and there is a place for them as self defense tools, but I really don't think they are appropriate for a beginner to the shooting sports. It is just too easy for that short and stunted barrel to end up pointing where it is not supposed to.
The main advantage to derringers is that they are small guns, but many models are chambered for potent large bore calibers. You can have an emergency hideout gun that still packs a wallop. The extremely short barrels, however, means that the bullet doesn't have much of a chance to engage the rifling and start spinning. It has been my experience that the majority of bullets fired from derringers will start to keyhole after about ten feet.
("Keyhole" means that the bullet makes odd, keyhole shaped holes in the paper target. This happens when it starts to tumble in flight because it isn't spinning fast enough to be stabilized. And, if the bullet isn't flying straight and true, your gun can be so inaccurate that it is actually a danger to you and your loved ones.)
Small autoloaders have always been popular, and one of the first was the Baby Browning that was in big demand in the trenches during WWI.
This firearm has the distinction of being the first popular autoloader that was small enough to be used as a hideout gun. Most of the soldiers who bought them were hoping that the weapon was small enough to be used if they were captured by the enemy. If this tiny pistol was missed when they were searched (which was likely), then they would still be armed when it came time for them to make a break for it. The only problem is that I simply cannot find even a single record of one of these guns ever being used in anger during WWI, let alone allowing a few prisoners to escape from the Kaiser's prison camps.
The biggest drawback to the Baby Browning was the .25 Auto cartridge that it was chambered for. This is a truly pitiful round, and it probably has one of the worst performance of any round except for those spring loaded BB guns that kids use to shoot at tin cans. Most of the data about this round is anecdotal, which can be frustrating, but I still wouldn't trust it for any serious work.
Keep in mind that these stories are not something you should take to heart. I would never rely on the .25 ACP for defense, but that doesn't mean I am willing to just stand there and let someone shoot me with one. All firearms are dangerous, just as all gunshots are serious.
Just as a point of trivia, the first gun that James Bond carries in the novels is a Beretta .25 ACP. It is the only gun he regularly carries through the first five novels, reluctantly giving it up under orders in the opening pages of Dr. No. Since the first movie starring Sean Connery was also Dr. No, and they included the scene where Bond is ordered to give up the .25, everyone assumes that England's most famous spy never used a .25. Not so, not so.
It appears to me that, since the first commercial hideout autoloader used such a weak round, it is assumed that all other guns in this class are also less than reliable fight stoppers. This changed a bit with the introduction of very small guns chambered for the .32 ACP cartridge, a more potent caliber that some experts claim to be the low end of reliable defense guns. One of the most popular modern handguns chambered for this round is the Beretta Tomcat.
This is another small gun that is probably a bit too tiny for novices to use effectively. In expert hands, it could be very effective as an emergency arm that is held in reserve until the perp is within knife fighting distance. I don't know of anyone who would think it is fun to be double tapped in the face or throat by a thirty-two.
I mentioned that I have yet to come across an account of the .25 ACP being used in WWI. The .32 ACP was used to start that conflict, however. Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated by an autoloader chambered for the .32 ACP cartridge. The gun used was a FN Model 1910.
This is handgun is, obviously, too large to be considered a "mouse gun". Most people who care to make the distinction will call pistols of this size "pocket pistols". That means they are smaller than full sized combat guns, but they are still not small enough to be considered emergency hideout weapons. If you are interested, you can read a range report of a pocket pistol chambered for the .32 ACP right here.
The round might have started WWI but it went a long way towards ending WWII, at least so far as the European Theater was concerned. Hitler shot himself in the right temple with a Walther PP chambered for the .32 ACP.
That is another one of those pocket pistols, although it is approaching mouse gun size.
Getting back to James Bond, you will remember that he was ordered to give up his .25 in the novel and movie Dr. No. The gun he was issued was a Walther PPK, which is a compact version of the PP. Both are chambered for the .32 ACP cartridge. It is in this way that Bond and Hitler have something in common.
I consider the PPK to be a mouse gun, although it is a rather healthy example of the breed. No matter how anyone refers to the weapon, it is a bit too small for me to be completely comfortable when I see it in the hands of a beginner.
Notice that I keep pointing out how these guns are best in the role as a last-ditch defense. If circumstances allow, then a larger gun chambered for a more potent caliber should be chosen. But, no matter what, always remember that the first rule for surviving a gunfight is to show up with a gun. I have yet to give a student a hard time about their self defense choice, as long as it isn't a derringer. (And I'll bitch loud and long about those since I don't want to get shot by accident while we are at the range.)
Comments (18)
I've been an advocate of having one gun that's carryable all the time, and having a backup gun out in the car that's got a bit more oomph to it. 9mm, .45, .40, etc. The Tomcat fits the bill as a gun that one is likely to have at a critical moment. The Tomcat is probably not subject to getting flashed at an inopportune moment in public.
I think we all wish we were not limited to concealed carry. In which case, I would happily carry a .45 on the belt, and all would be right with the world. Unfortunately, hiding a full size pistol is tough in this part of the world.
As an instructor, is the two-gun solution as outlined a practical option, in your opinion?
Posted by Kyle the Opinionated | October 20, 2006 4:03 AM
Posted on October 20, 2006 04:03
As an instructor, is the two-gun solution as outlined a practical option, in your opinion?
Sure! If someone feels comfortable with two guns, why not?
For many decades police officers would carry two revolvers chambered for the .38 Special round, one being the duty gun on their belt and the other a snub-nosed in an ankle holster. That way they would have a backup if the first gun ran dry during a gunfight, something that is more important if you have a revolver instead of an autoloader.
Even when off duty, they would still keep the snubbie in that ankle holster. Sometimes they would conceal their duty gun, sometimes they would carry another snubbie on their belt instead. But they wanted that extra six shots available if it was needed.
So far as living in a warm climate, smaller guns are obviously called for. Having something with more stopping power isn't a bad idea, either.
James
PS I addded to the post a bit since you left your comment. I decided that I wanted to talk about the gun choices of James Bond and Adolf Hitler.
Posted by James R. Rummel | October 20, 2006 4:46 AM
Posted on October 20, 2006 04:46
I may have misunderstood, but the 32ACP was popular way before 25ACP's introduction . That is, the Browning Model 1899/1900 sold something like a million guns before it was dropped from the line for the M1910. It got some serious press coverage for, among other things, the assasination of the Russian govenor of Finland.
Interestingly, from a historical perspective on mouseguns, there weren't really any 22LR autoloaders of any sort, pocket pistol or otherwise until after WWI. I'd guess that this has a little to do with the wide availibility of lesmoke cartidges, and other similar technical reasons.
I'd be interested to see you do a Part II article on small revolvers. Besides the more or less common small frame Smith/Colt ones (think Gene Hackman in the french connection), there were litterally piles of .32 and .38 breakopen revolvers in the United States before WWII. If I had to guess, at least in the Midwest/East, carrying a cheap .32" revolver was probably more common than any other weapon, just based on the sheer number of the things that survived.
Posted by Bob | October 20, 2006 9:29 AM
Posted on October 20, 2006 09:29
James,
You've touched upon one of my favorite subjects! In fact, I may have to put up a post of my own this weekend...
In a nutshell, I own just about every conceivable variant on the mousegun. I've got a two shot .38 Special Derringer. I've got two different .25 ACPs, a Colt Junior and a knock-off of the Baby Browning. I've got several j-frame S&W 5-shot revolvers including the flamethrowing 360PD - .357 Magnum power out of a 12 ounce gun.
I've even got a North American Arms Mini-22 - a single action 5-shot .22LR revolver (which I desperately need to take to the range). It's smaller than a pack of cigarettes, and fits into the watch/coin pocket of most jeans.
I will completely echo your comments about these NOT being guns for beginners.
And I'll second the comment about open carry, although I'd opt for a 7- or 8- shot .357 Magnum revolver myself...
Posted by Jay G | October 20, 2006 10:33 AM
Posted on October 20, 2006 10:33
Just a quick note on derringers... I have an American Arms model 1, which is actually one of the better ones. This thing *must* be loaded with the hammer at half-cock, because if the hammer is all the way down, the firing pin will protrude from the breech face - and it can detonate the cartridge as the action is closed!
There are, of course, no interlocks to prevent you from doing this. You just have to remember.
On the other end of the spectrum is the KelTec 3AT. Very nice, and a heck of a good value for the price.
Posted by Mike | October 20, 2006 10:43 AM
Posted on October 20, 2006 10:43
I may have misunderstood, but the 32ACP was popular way before 25ACP's introduction .
I'm afraid that I was expressing myself poorly. What I was trying to convey was that mouse guns got a big boost in the power department when the gun companies started to offer teensy little guns chambered for the .32 ACP.
Although I think the .32 is a bit too weak to be depended on for defense, I also don't think the scorn heaped on the cartridge is justified. After all, it killed Hitler! (Lucky shot, though.)
I added a few lines to the post so my meaning is hopefully a bit more evident. Thank you kindly for bringing my attention to the lack.
James
Posted by James R. Rummel | October 20, 2006 12:02 PM
Posted on October 20, 2006 12:02
I'm (technically) at work right now and am not going to post to my own blog, but I will later. I've spent the last little while scouring google for an old usenet post from 2000 that is relevant to the current discussion here. I'll make up a post later this evening linking everything together.
Posted by AlanDP | October 20, 2006 1:22 PM
Posted on October 20, 2006 13:22
My ever-indulgent wife loves her Kel-Tec P-32 and I've got one I carry on occasion. All our magazines have the +1 extensions on them though, more to give my ham hands something to grip than for the extra round. Not that an 8th round is anything to disdain, just that it's more important (to me) to be able to put the first 7 where I want than to have an 8th miss.
While the 9mm I normally carry hits a lot harder, and my XD-45 not only hits harder but holds more (13 vs. 8), the P-32 is smaller than my wallet and so easy to carry there's no reason not to (other than the occasional legal restriction).
If it had been available at the time we might have gone with the P3-AT instead of the P-32 - the ever-indulgent wife is a tad recoil sensitive. As long as you can handle the snap I'd take the .380 over the .32 - but you'll need that extension even more to hold on to it.
Posted by KCSteve | October 20, 2006 2:26 PM
Posted on October 20, 2006 14:26
Asked, answered and thank you.
Off topic: Isn't it about time someone applied the spirit of the Americans with Disabilties Act to the design of suitable firearms? (Not the letter! Not the letter! Keep those lawsuits away from my gun manufacturers!)
Back on topic: My guess for the best small beginners handgun is a little J-frame Smith with ergonomic grips. Definitely a guess though. You don't see many range reports on that subject:
A Few for the New: We Test Five Guns With Folks Who've Never Shot One
Hmmm. Find a gun magazine editor....
Yours,
Wince
Posted by Wince and Nod | October 20, 2006 6:08 PM
Posted on October 20, 2006 18:08
For years I carried a little Astra .25 either in my right front pocket or my right hip pocket. I fired it routinely (as I do with all my pistols)and was able to use it effectively at 15 to 20 feet. Effectively in my case, at any distance, means a four inch pie pan.
I was later shown a Browning 380 which I fell in love with as a pocketable pistol. Of course it was a big jump in size and cartridge, but I felt just as comfortable with it as I did the little Astra.
I never had to use the Astra, but I have had the need to pull the .380 on two occasions and fired it on the last one. That was over 15 years ago, and I still carry it. I live in Arizona and my 1911 .45 is usually carried out and in the open. Yet, when I am going to a social event or just running around with friends who don't know I carry, my old Browning is tucked away somewhere on me.
Would I depend on the .25 to save my neck in a get down and get dirty situation? I did for several years without finding out the answer to that question.
My little Browning .380 really saved my hide once when I had to make it bark. Of course I like my .45, but sometimes it is just a tad too socially bulky.
I still have the little Astra and I still shoot it every once in a while.
On the safe side, give me the heavier caliber.
Anybody noticed how ugly the modern pistols are?
Posted by John Ulster | November 4, 2006 4:03 AM
Posted on November 4, 2006 04:03
yes i was wondering if you could give me some directions on fixing my gun, its a astra .25 model #228188. you see the slide and barrel came out when i was showing it to a friend and he tried to fix it but screwed it up and left me high and dry. the barrel is two pieces. he got the first one in and then put the slide on, but now i cant get the end of the barrel in and the slide does not go back all the way. ant info you could give to me or anyone/any website that might help would be greatly app.
thanks
mike ware
Posted by mike ware | February 2, 2007 11:45 AM
Posted on February 2, 2007 11:45
On the Derringer subject, I agree it is not the best choice for a shooter with limited experience. I am a firearms instructor and you will be surprised to learn that my concealed carry firearm of choice is a Bond Arms Derringer in .45 Long Colt. It is very well built, has great safety features, and is accurate within it's intended range. Since most defensive scenarios take place at close range, I do not feel under armed with this potent little 2 shot Derringer. The American Derringer is a good second choice. My Bond .45 has a stout recoil and interchangeable barrels, but I would never shoot magnum rounds or 10MM. The .38, .44 Special or the .45 Long Colt are all excellent choices. A well built Derringe like the Bond is easy to carry and conceal. Just get some training, practice, and follow all CCW laws.
Posted by Dave Larson | March 15, 2007 11:54 PM
Posted on March 15, 2007 23:54
I was wondering what types of guns or Most common guns seen on the Streets in the U.S. no ones know and i tried searching sites but they just give me bull. Thanks
Posted by Frankie Rosa | June 7, 2007 12:29 PM
Posted on June 7, 2007 12:29
i've alwas been a big fan of firearme and you guys have definitey fueled my passion so i just want to thank the creators of this website
Posted by pierre younes | July 24, 2007 3:55 PM
Posted on July 24, 2007 15:55
I got a few things to say:
guns dont kill people!
people kill people!
crime control! not gun control!
power to the people!
FTP!!!
Posted by matthew | July 27, 2007 1:27 AM
Posted on July 27, 2007 01:27
How much is does the very first gun at the top of this article cost?
Posted by Carlos Luna | November 14, 2007 12:19 AM
Posted on November 14, 2007 00:19
I came across this blog while looking up different guns. I thought this was a really interesting post. I'll be honest that I don't know a lot about guns. I'm wanting to learn though. I thought it was cool that you mentioned Bond. I'm a huge fan of spy books and movies. I know that much of that is pure fantasy, that real spies aren't usually like that. I had a question for you. This is pure speculation and fantasy. If you had been a spy back in the middle 1960's, what would be your gun of choice? It would need to be something that could be easily concealed in a suit or tux, and also could be silenced if necessary. Also would you carry another gun in an ankle holster? If so, what would that gun be? Thanks. I look forward to your or anyone else's response.
Posted by Keith | February 1, 2008 11:43 AM
Posted on February 1, 2008 11:43
Most of the automatic pistols of today are cheaply made, unreliable and ugly. Many of them are composites of crude investment castings and polymer plastic. Some of them don't even look like real guns.
Nearly fifty years ago I inherited a pre-war FN (Browning) M1910 in 7.65mm (32ACP) caliber. It was brand new in the box, unfired and untouched. Since then I have fired at least 3000 rounds of ammunition of all makes through it without experiencing any type of malfunction. It is extremely accurate for a pocket pistol. I would much rather defend myself with a "mouse gun" that works instead of an inaccurate and unreliable piece of junk of larger caliber. A carefully placed 32 slug is always much more effective that a 45 slug which misses the target - or never even gets to the target.
Posted by Robert Emerson | February 9, 2008 4:13 PM
Posted on February 9, 2008 16:13